Interview: Difficult Conversations in Higher Education

To help address the "Difficult Conversations" theme of this year's Innovative Teaching Showcase at Western Washington University, we interviewed Dr. Tara Perry, Professor in the Department of Communication Studies at Western Washington University. Dr. Perry’s research interests emphasize scholarship of teaching and learning (e.g. service-learning, student learning), student-faculty collaborative relationships, and advocacy for people with silenced voices such as people of color, students with disabilities, and generation Y.

Difficult Conversations Defined (1/8)

Question: How do you define difficult dialogues and why is it important to engage in them?

Dr. Perry: Difficult dialogs are essential dialogs. These are the conversations that people do not want to have. Any conversation that we basically, politically, ethnically decide that we don't want to talk about are the difficult conversations. And maybe people might talk about them in their house at the dinner table, but they don't want to talk about them in the workplace. They don't want to talk about them at school. They don't want to talk about this in their friends’ circle. Why not? Why not? That's the big question. People don't want to talk about this for the simple reason– that they're going to have to take some time to reflect, to think about the words that they're going to choose, to think about others… which is empathy, right? Trying to put yourself in somebody else's shoes, which folks don't like doing!

It takes work. It takes time. It takes patience to have these difficult dialogues. When we think about difficult conversations, we have to look at ourselves. We have to ask ourselves, why do I feel uncomfortable? Why don't I want to engage in this topic? Why do I put everything else in front of me that is supposedly not as important? And why does this always take the back burner? Why do I silence my colleagues and my students and other people that bring up this conversation? Alice Walker says it so beautifully. She says, “We have to own the fears that we have of each other and then in some practical way, some daily way, figure out how to see people differently than the way we were brought up to.”

Difficult Dialogues (2/8)

Question: What difficult topics do you teach and why?

Dr. Perry: I teach a number of different conversations in my classroom that really are under the umbrella of difficult dialogs. Now, one of the things that I really want to make clear is I don't just talk about these once in my class, but it is integrated throughout every single class.

One of the topics that I talk about is homelessness. We look at homelessness from a local standpoint, what is going on in our community as well as what is going on on campus? How are students impacted by homelessness?

I also talk about race. I think it's very important to address anti-racism, anti-blackness in the classroom and other categories of individuals that are often left out. Race is something that I've really focused on, especially this year.

Another topic that I focus on is grief and loss. It's very, very challenging to talk about people who you have lost in your life, or who you are observing right now that are basically dying. But it's important to talk about, because one of the things that we all have in common is one life and second death. We are all going to die at some point. So why not develop a culture where we can talk about this as something that's normal instead of something that is ostracized or excluded?

Another topic that I talk about in my classroom is the experiences of LGBTQ+. And I think that's important because when we look at gender, it's not just two things–it's more than that. And we need to be able to talk about how other people identify themselves and why, and be able to celebrate those differences.

And so I kind of talk about some of these conversations in my class as the dark side of interpersonal communication. And when I do introduce it, my students love it because the dark side looks at both the light and the dark. It looks at what we kind of hide, what we decide not to talk about in interpersonal relationships, but that these, the dark and light are both very important to talk about. And so in terms of why I talk about difficult dialogues in my classroom, I think it's essential for teaching learning and for building a community where everyone can empathize with one another and be collaborative so that we can work as a team instead of having this us and them mentality. We have to be done with that. We have to shut the door to us and them. And let's talk about the things that matter in our everyday lives.

Identity, Mindfulness, & Self Care (3/8)

Question: How does your own identity play a role in making this work?

Dr. Perry: As a black woman, a woman of the global majority, this work is essential. For what I've experienced in my life dealing with racism and sexism, I feel as though we need to be able to create a classroom, create a community where we can talk, because I know I'm not the only one that has experienced this. But as we've seen with George Floyd and a number of other black people who have lost their lives, we can no longer ignore talking about race or talking about sexism or talking about antisemitism and so forth.

We have to. But for me, coming from my own standpoint, I feel that I have a responsibility as a professor to engage my students in these conversations. From my own identity, I feel like you. I have to. But then what happens is people of color, we end up doing this work. And the work is tough work. And so we also have to do our own racial healing.

Integrating Triggers & Privilege (4/8)

Question: How has the pandemic impacted Student Responses?

Dr. Perry: A conversation that I do have with my students that may not be comfortable for some is about the elephant in the room, which is the pandemic and how it not only affected my students, but how it has affected me. So we need to be real and we need to be true. We need to talk about conversations that may not feel comfortable, but guess what? You can actually integrate triggers into your classroom. Like if my students are reading something that I think will trigger them,I put a sign–a note–just letting them know that. But does that mean that they don't read it? Does that mean that we stop them from educating themselves and understanding? No. You got to do the work.

Think about anything that you've had in your life. Think about something that you've worked really hard for. How did you get that? Sweat? Maybe some tears? Some hard work? Some people holding you up, supporting you. But you got it done. Things that are worth having don't come easy.

Question: How does our privilege figure into the conversation?

Dr. Perry: Privilege is easy. Privilege is unearned. You didn't have to do anything. And you get able-body privilege. You get white privilege. In terms of religion, you can be privileged in that category. Privilege is integrated throughout our system. And basically, white supremacy set up the system long before many of us were ever alive. And what did they decide? Who gets privilege and based on what? Based on class, based on religion, based on race, based on ability, based on gender. And I can go on. Privilege is part of why we are here today and part of why we don't want to have these conversations.

So the next time you say to yourself, Well, I just don't feel comfortable engaging in this, you need to think about the standpoint. Where are you coming from? Why? What privilege do you have?

Online, In Person, Everywhere (5/8)

Question: Where do difficult conversations fit into online and face-to-face classes?

Dr. Perry: Difficult dialogs don't just happen live. They are built in assignments such as discussions, written work, reflections, exams, teamwork, student, self-made videos, videos selected by the professor through mindfulness and self-care practices and so forth. This work can be extended to any discipline.

Difficult dialogs need to be part of every conversation. It is part of our daily communication. In all reality, difficult dialogues can happen in any discipline and in any organization. Difficult dialogues need to be part of our everyday communication. Verbal and nonverbal. And most importantly, we must listen to what is not said.

Question: What is at the heart of this work?

Dr. Perry: One of the things that we need to realize is our students truly have a lot to teach us. And we also need to be willing to go on the journey with our students, because long after we're gone, they will still be here.

This summarizes–this concludes–the reasons why difficult dialogs are essential. They're not an add on. They're integrated. They're essential.

Strategies and Suggestions (6/8)

Question: With your background in Communication & Cultural Studies, what specific strategies have resulted in the best outcomes for your students?

Dr. Perry: Given my background in cultural studies, communication, indifference, I have learned over the years, over the many years, specific strategies, conversations, theories, concepts that work in the classroom.

I've learned about critical race theory, which definitely talks a lot about systemic racism, institutional racism, structural racism. I look at the spiral of silence theory, which is something that my students learn about and how is that actually applied? We look at perceptions. How do we perceive each other?

And what my students learn is about the different factors that impact the way we see the world. Based on our upbringing, our culture, our religion, our socioeconomic status, etc. all impact the way that we see the world and the way that we see each other.

In communication, one of the things that we talk about is listening to what is not said. Our nonverbal communication speaks much louder than what comes out of our mouth. We must take the time to truly listen to what is not said. Nonverbal communication speaks louder than what comes out of our mouth. The way you make someone feel, the way you look at someone, the way you treat someone, a gesture that you make can really impact somebody in a negative way.

So we all must understand that it is our responsibility to not only just read about difficult conversations or listen to videos or watch videos, but what is important is that we must internalize what it is, and then we must take action. You can read all that you want to read, but if you're not putting it into action and making action part of the change. Nothing will be accomplished. And we will be having this conversation not just four hundred years later, but five hundred years later and so forth.

This is the time. The time is now to have these conversations. Have them in the classroom. Have them in the workplace. Have them sitting around at the dinner table in different social settings. Make it a part of our lives. Integrate it, use it. Talk about it.

Question: What suggestions can you offer to people teaching in a variety of disciplines who want to engage more critically with their students?

Dr. Perry: There are a number of different suggestions that I would like to offer to people doing this work, and people who are thinking about doing this work but are a little bit hesitant because they're wondering, does this really fit with my department, my field? And the answer is yes. You can talk about this in science, math, English, communication, business, sociology, etc. It can be discussed anywhere. So how do you do this?

Singleton has an excellent book that talks about courageous conversations about race. And there are different guidelines which are also known as either community guidelines or another thing that you've probably heard some ground rules, but one of them is to stay engaged.

Secondly, expect to experience discomfort. Everything is not going to be comfortable, and we need to understand that these are important conversations. So expect to experience discomfort.

Speak your own truth. When I talk about speaking your own truth, as stated in Singleton's book, it’s truly to talk from your perspective. Don't speak for another group–speak for other people, but speak your own truth.

Expect and accept a lack of closure. So as you're engaging in these conversations, there are times where you're not going to have a conclusion, some type of closure because we're not done. We are not done and that is okay. In our society, we try to just finish everything, get it done. But please expect and accept a lack of closure.

Next, share the air. We don't want to just hear your voice. We need to also hear others. So taking the role of being the observer sometimes is great. So share the air.

Listen for understanding. Don't listen to ambush the other person, but listen for understanding, respect others. So you might have viewpoints that you don't agree with, but respect it.

The Circle Way (7/8)

Question: What resource has worked best for you?

Dr. Perry: The Circle Way is a tool that I use in my classroom. When I have students meet, I definitely have them read the simple two page guidelines that really tells them how to start the conversation and how to end the conversation. And one of the things that I highlight before they do that is they do read the land agreement. So whatever land that they're on, we make sure that that's recognized and that is discussed before we get into the difficult conversation. And when I have my students actually meet without me on their zoom calls or their team meetings, I have them apply the two page guidelines of the Circle Way.

And it's a very, very powerful tool because it allows everyone to be inclusive, to respect each other, to figure out how to navigate when people aren’t agreeing with one another. The guidelines are very thorough. I suggest that anyone, even if you're not new to these difficult dialogs, use them.

They define the circle way as putting equity and justice in the center. The Circle Way unequivocally affirms the essential practice of turning one another to uphold racial, ethnic, gender, disability, economic and environmental justice. We can imagine a different way. The Circle Way.

Question: How do you balance self care with this daunting work?

Dr. Perry: One of the ways that I do this work is, first of all, I take care of myself. Being a woman, a black woman of a global majority, this work oftentimes falls on our shoulders. But I do believe that I, as well as my nonwhite colleagues, have the responsibility. For me, there are times talking about what people have experienced and and you know, like we'll talk about slavery, we'll talk about police brutality. And it's tough. I'm going to tell you, sometimes I go home and I just have to chill, relax, take a deep breath, because I know I just had a heavy day, but then once I'm rested, I get back up and I do this work again. Because for too long, we have kept this work hidden.

Question: Have you always addressed racism and mindfulness in your courses?

Dr. Perry: I didn't talk about racism for many, many, many years. Throughout my teaching, I didn't. Because when you are a person of a global majority, you know, people think that, oh, this person has their own agenda. This person is talking about this only because they're black or they're Asian or they're Latina and so forth. Right? But these are true experiences.

We deal with racism and sexism on a daily basis. When I leave my house, I know what world, what kind of world I'm stepping into. And I know that if I can at least get my classes, my students talking about, for example, what black students at Western Washington University experience, you know, over the years and what they're experiencing now, my students can be more mindful and mindfulness is a way, another way that I take care of myself.

And I also encourage students to do the same. So in our classroom, we will look at different mindfulness videos. We'll read articles about how to be in the moment, how to be where we are, and if we can actually dialog and in the moment we can get the work done.

So for me, in order to do this work, yes, I have to be engaged in my own racial healing, my own mindfulness and self-care. And in turn, I teach the students how to do the same thing.

What makes a Topic Difficult? (8/8)

Question: Can any topic become a difficult discussion?

Dr. Perry: I would say yes. And the reason being is I look at it also from a collectivist view. But I also look at it from an individualistic view. So perhaps somebody had an upbringing or a particular experience in their life that they now would like to talk about, but it's very difficult to talk about it because it opens wounds. There might be some pain, but for them it's part of their healing to talk about these conversations. So it's really nobody's job to say what you have to say is not worthy. What you have to say is truly not a difficult conversation because you have not walked in their shoes.

Empathy says, try to walk in somebody else's shoes. But I want to let everyone know: you will never, ever know what it is truly like to live as that individual has lived. You don't know and you will never know. But if you open your ears, there's a reason why we have two ears and one mouth. There's a quote about that. We have two ears so that we can truly take the time to listen and learn about things, topics that are different from our own.

So, yes, difficult dialogs, difficult conversations can be about any topic.